Rogues in 5.1

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geekrocker13
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Rogues in 5.1

I started a rogue on this server a looong time ago, and he's been my main RP toon ever since. But when I got to Pandaria, I realized something disappointing: the class had become very difficult for me to play. Now, I don't know if it's because their playstyle changed and I'm just not good at using them anymore, or if people are having trouble with them all around. Either way, I gave up on him for a while because the class just had no survivabality anymore (again, maybe I'm just doing something wrong). Anyway, my point/question is this: did rogues become easier again with the launch of Landfall? I was playing him last night, and I seemed to be doing alright against 90 mobs for the Domination dailies. Am I going crazy, or did rogues get nerfed and then unnerfed? Sorry if this is all stupid to be asking :p

Evelynn
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I...

Well, I was sitting in vent listening to a pair of lonnnng time rogue players chat. One has always been exceptional with his DPS and the other was a new guest for us whose second love of WOW was PVP (Rp was first!) as they were talking and trading ideas it sort of occurred to all of us that rogues (this might apply to everyone, who knows!) sometimes get stuck in their ways. "SUB IS BEST GRAH GRAH GRAH" because it is what they are good at! It is what worked for them. Mists changed that for alot of Rogue players and has been kinda forcing them to learn new ways to deal their horrific damage.  As our guys traded ideas and were open to new rotation ideas that became really clear, which might have worked in the past might not work now. Which might not have worked in the past.. might work better for you now.

SO.. perhaps you picked up a piece of gear?  Perhaps one of your skills works different? Whoooo knowwwwss but if you ever wanna chat about the changes: Kynes on Hside is pretty cool about offering suggestions. I think he is in the guild: Sunshield. I think!

"Here.. is where our story begins."

[A] Rosemarri | Lyric -- Borderland Coalition
[H] Evelynn | Desari

Keialaar
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I don't know what spec you're playing, but when Pandaria dropped, I was slow leveling my 85s because I was leveling my rogue from level 60 to 85.  I didn't stop and carried her right on up to 90.

I'm sublety, so- keep that in mind, but my observations-  You have to be a lot more aware of what you're fighting, and whether it has an ability that is interruptible or dodgeable and keep on top of that.  I died a lot until I realized I was taking unnecessary damage.  Avoid grouped hostiles whenever possible.  We're fairly squishy, and Evasion tanking + recuperate only lasts so long.  Don't forget to sap.  Keep your poisons up.  Rotation matters- Are you trying to backstab instead of hemo? (If you're sub)  Use Eviscerate and ... uh.. shadowstep, I think the ability is?  Don't be afraid to use your cooldowns. (It always seems silly to me to use cooldowns while questing or doing dailies, but.. hey, they get the job done)

I do notice a difference between my rogue and say, my warrior.  Rychtier can galump around and pretty much take on anything I send him against.  Jenny's got to be more careful and smart about her targets.  Both can easily do their dailies. 

I tried playing rogues in classic and BC and could never get them above level 20. So I can't really say if things are easier now than they were 6-8 months ago; Jenny was rolled in... August, I think?  So she's a pretty new character.  But I personally am happy with rogue performance. (My DPS is another story, but I'm 99.99% sure that's user error. :) )

Mushalor
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X and I talk about this a lot. I love Meros, and I hate the rogue class with a passion, now. Mists changed a lot of things for the better, but I feel that the rogue class got a lot of poor design choices dumped on it. I'm not a terrible rogue player, and I'm not the best. I'd say I'm a step above mediocre, and I can make up for that usually by paying attention, learning my shit for fights, and bringing all the requisite buffs and things to the table.

But the thing is, I don't want to. I have no desire to explore the new PvE content as far as scenarios, dungeons, etc. goes, on my rogue--which is terrible since I used to love doing that stuff on him. I'm burnt out on the constant deaths, the constant having to avoid mob after mob after mob because I know in spite of all my cooldowns, my recup + evasion, my stuns, my blind, in spite of anything I might do, I just can't kill anything effectively. It takes minutes, sometimes up to five or more, to handle one or two mobs. The dailies for the Tillers are hell for me, because the monkeys swarm, there are very few that exist separately, and the ones that don't swarm have so much health they can wittle me down to next to nothing before I ever get them dead. It's become a very unfun game of keeping vanish on cooldown and hoping like hell I can kill that last mob, or sneak in and snag the quest item, while someone else out doing their quests happens to keep the mobs occupied.

The reason I feel so frustrated and like all of this takes way too much effort and struggle on an sheer cliff wall-climb is on my level 85 warlock, a caster class in shit gear rather than a leather wearer at 90 in end-stage quest gear designed to put you up to heroic level, can take on literally a half dozen mobs (or more) without breaking a sweat. DK is the same. Monk, I assume, will be the same, when I get up there. Certainly low level is ridiculously overpowered.

Against all these other melee classes (I include 'lock as melee because of how much time we spend as demonology in either metamorphosis or dark apotheosis) I've tried, the only one I've noticed that sucks as much to struggle through and feel like a chore on is warrior.

X and I have pretty much resigned ourselves to not... doing anything with two of our most beloved characters PvE-wise because of this. Just questing to 90 was ridiculously painful to the point of burning out on it. We're moving on to our DKs soon, I believe, which will be a welcome breath of relief and fresh air, but...

It's still stupid and makes me crabby and frustrated to think about. Especially thinking about how my piddly warlock at 85 deals more damage and defeats mass numbers of mobs while my rogue and X's warrior can hardly handle the one at 90, and getting more than one is almost certain doom. >8C

Edit: Having read Enveri's post, now I'm thinking it must be me, and that I somehow backslid from being good enough a rogue to get shit done to somehow being fail in spite of reading up, doing all the things Enveri describes, etc.

H: Menotoa/Meros, Macaw/Limthala, Penumbral, Jianu, Noneta...
A: Astarin, Rahmael, Grigors...

Keialaar
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Maybe I just have good luck? :(   I don't know- I got Jenny to 90, got her geared into heroic 5 mans and haven't done much with her beyond that.  It's entirely possible that since I haven't played a rogue terribly long, I haven't had to adjust to new rotations and so forth?

I'm sorry! :(

Mushalor
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It's entirely possible that since I haven't played a rogue terribly long, I haven't had to adjust to new rotations and so forth?

I'm sorry! :(

Nah, don't be sorry. Not your fault I can't seem to figure out what's wrong.

As for adjusting to new rotations, that's the weird part. The only real things that changed for me/my playstyle from Cata was having to actually put ambush into my rotation more often, and to actually start using backstab/garrotte, depending on situations.

I really miss Wrath, though, when Sub was all about crit and exp. and hemohemohemohemo forever. I mean, hemo in general is still what I have to do now because of needing to be in front of the target when solo'ing, otherwise it's all about backstab and ambush dancing, but. The mechanics sure were different back then!

IDK. A part of me thinks "well maybe you just need to have awesome gear and then things'll be fine" but then I go right back to the fact that I haven't needed that for any of my non-90s thus far. It's just rogue that seems to suffer so painfully through solo'ing mobs (packs or otherwise) for me. It also doesn't help that I'm aware Sub isn't sub-par (hah) like it used to be back in BC and Wrath, when I worked my butt off in raiding and managed to top meters in my guild in spite of that "handicap" of chosen/favoured spec. I didn't PvE very seriously in Cata, so I can't really say for certain how good or bad Sub played out, but it still didn't feel like it does now to me.

Out of curiosity, what is a typical situation/rotation for you as Sub when you're out doing dailies? Both solo'ing one mob vs several?

Maybe there's just something I really am missing in my playstyle.

H: Menotoa/Meros, Macaw/Limthala, Penumbral, Jianu, Noneta...
A: Astarin, Rahmael, Grigors...

geekrocker13
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It's weird to play my rogue and then DK. On one, I can barely survive a quest, on the other, I can kill Ragnoros with my bare hands lol

Love is giving someone the power to destroy you and trusting them not to use it.

Keialaar
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I typically do one mob at a time. I'm going to try doing her dailies more over the next four days (I have been very apathetic about them and have been leveling alts instead) and will report back!

It could be that I am just doing the easysauce dailies and when I try and get into the others I'll be 'omg D:' too, I don't know!

Arenvald
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I don't know... for my part, I hated/sucked at rogue all through pretty much everything ever until... what. Mid Cata I guess, I decided I'm going to try this damn thing again because grr, and rolled Andrei. Andrei is now 83... because cata content blows.

But. Beside that. I actually -like- it. Now to be fair, I'm Combat. I've always been Combat. Sub is too damn fussy (and feels like too much of a PVP spec and I hate PVP), and Assa is (again) too fussy and requires too much situational finagling that when solo is clumsy and impractical to manage. Combat feels like a fury warrior (which I like) with a lot more interesting tools in their handbag, which has allowed me to stir up my gameplay a bit, and increase my enjoyment of what otherwise feels like a complete slog. Yes, roguing is harder than the other classes I typically play (except maybe mage... snark all you want about their dps but with that horrendous frost barrier nerf that went through a while back, I die so much on my mage it's not even funny), but it requires me to think more tactically and that makes me want to pay more attention to the game itself instead of 'yaaawwnnn mash mash mash' which pretty much sums up warrior, or hunter, or paladin. 

As far as endgame stuff goes.... Frankly, Mero, it's not so much you, as far as the Tillers stuff goes, it's that those dailies are grotesquely overtuned. I did ONE batch of Tillers dailies (with Aren, who's a freakin' hunter) and hated it so much I've never gone back. The mobs DO have too much health, spawn too quickly, and swarm, which makes the whole endeavor horribly unpleasant no matter what class you're playing. I don't think you should blame the Rogue class so much as the designers who decided to 'make dailies interesting' by making them frustratingly difficult and tedious.

(A) Arenvald Greenbriar - Nythaniel Redhand - Antonias - Vyr - Arjan - Leodoric - Azrithel - Andrei - Caerdren - Laeton

The Dancing Hare
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Yeah, my rogue had problems just completing quests on his own. He's not my first 90, so I had other classes to compare to. I fully admit that I'm a terrible rogue, but even so, stuff just seemed much much harder on him. And I was running combat (which I don't even like) which is supposed to be better for PVE, or at least it was. I don't know if that's the case now. Mostly when I ran into trouble was around 88 or so, Townlong and Dread Wastes. 

Mushalor
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Combat feels like a fury warrior

...This explains a lot. I don't like any of the warrior DPS specs, but I chose fury over arms because fury I could at least dual-wield one-handers on and feel more like a rogue. Funny, though, I can't stand combat when compared to Sub. Sub has always been my love BECAUSE it's fussy, haha. Thanks for the insight on that.

Frankly, Mero, it's not so much you, as far as the Tillers stuff goes, it's that those dailies are grotesquely overtuned. I did ONE batch of Tillers dailies (with Aren, who's a freakin' hunter) and hated it so much I've never gone back. The mobs DO have too much health, spawn too quickly, and swarm, which makes the whole endeavor horribly unpleasant no matter what class you're playing. I don't think you should blame the Rogue class so much as the designers who decided to 'make dailies interesting' by making them frustratingly difficult and tedious.

Good to hear I'm not going crazy. I actually haven't even done any end-game PvE excepting one Sha of Anger pug'd raid group (boy what a disaster that was), so I have nothing to compare my dailies to other than noticing how ridiculously easy it is on my other classes to do questing versus Rogue.

Mostly when I ran into trouble was around 88 or so, Townlong and Dread Wastes.

Yeah that's where it started to get super awful. Before, it was painful, but jusssst bearable. By the time X and I hit those two zones, though, we were so frustrated and tired of feeling so ridiculously subpar that it took us about a month to finally finish the 87/88-90 since we did it in little spurts here and there when we got up the resolve to bother.

H: Menotoa/Meros, Macaw/Limthala, Penumbral, Jianu, Noneta...
A: Astarin, Rahmael, Grigors...